Mr Avramopoulos, how great a threat is the refugee crisis to the cohesion of Europe?
We must block the path of the populists and extremists in order to protect the future of the European project. At the moment the populists are threatening the European dream. A few years ago, some people thought that the financial crisis could endanger Europe. However, we managed to prevent this from happening through joint European responses, such as the Banking Union. The situation with the refugee crisis is the same. It seems to me that many people have forgotten what was happening on this continent just a few decades ago.
It is not only the populists but also many EU citizens who are wondering whether Europe is coping with the refugee crisis.
Europe has been taken by surprise by the high number of refugees. And Europe was not prepared for all these people. Now that has changed. In the first half of 2015, the EU Commission adopted Agendas on Migration and on Security. We have agreed on the distribution of the refugees with all the EU Member States, although some states unfortunately do not wish to stick to this for internal political reasons. And we also now have a European Border and Coast Guard, which protects our shared borders.
Who then is blocking your refugee policy?
I do not want to list all governments here but there are some who are clearly opposed and who do not want a common European refugee policy to succeed.
You are talking about Hungary and Poland, but also France surely?
I do not wish to point a finger at any particular government. There are a number of governments which are not cooperating, citing public opinion as the reason. Some governments should follow Germany’s example. The large numbers of people who looked after refugees at railway stations showed what real solidarity is.
But some EU Member States see that differently.
Chancellor Angela Merkel has done exceptionally good work during the refugee crisis. Her decision of September 2015 to take in ten thousand refugees from Hungary into Germany is a symbol of the European values of humanity and solidarity for those seeking protection. The situation on the Balkan route was dramatic. For Angela Merkel there was no other choice. She had to do this.
In Washington, US President Donald Trump is evidently a champion of anti-refugee policy. To what extent does his attitude influence Europe?
The result of the US election will have a far greater effect on Europe than the withdrawal of the UK from the EU. His refugee policy goes against American tradition. Europe has to deal with that.
German people are asking how many more refugees will come into our country?
We cannot make any exact predictions. That would not be reliable. Arrivals via Greece and the Western Balkans have also sharply decreased in Germany since the EU-Turkey Agreement on refugees. However, as regards the Central Mediterranean route via Italy, the number of arrivals in 2016 – around 180 000 – was higher than in previous years.
What will Germany be facing in the future?
Germany has almost reached the limits of its capacity to take in refugees. Germany has shown Europe and the whole world what one nation can do on the basis of humanitarian and democratic values.
Do you feel powerless?
No. My aim is to convince all EU Member States to follow a common line. They are now cooperating far better than just two years ago. We have expanded the European Border Guard with a reserve of 1500 Frontex officers and we have better links between national data bases through Eurodac, for example. The refugee agreement with Turkey is a success story.
With thousands of refugees trapped on the Greek islands and sleeping in tents in the winter. You call that a success?
All refugees have to be registered and looked after on the islands until a decision has been taken on their asylum applications. That often takes months. It is a huge burden for the Greek islands. If an asylum application is rejected, the migrants are then returned from the Greek Islands to Turkey. All this must be done more swiftly and we are supporting the Greek authorities to this end.
But currently very few are sent back to Turkey.
The Turkish government only accepts refugees who are returned to Turkey directly from the Islands. Here too, procedures must be made more efficient. The islands cannot keep on shouldering the whole burden.
Europe also wants to conclude agreements with North African states. Can this work?
Each of our partner countries has their own challenges and problems. That is why we work with individual and tailor-made migration partnerships. Where there is still a lack of cooperation on return we need to work with targeted incentives and the collective leverage of the EU MS. And we can also do more within Europe. So far returns often fail because of too slow and complicated procedures or because returnees abscond. Therefore the Commission will issue new recommendations tomorrow in order for Member States to fully make use of the possibilities under the existing EU legislation. Some states do cooperate, others refuse to. The EU therefore has to use special means and offer tailor-made partnerships. People should not forget that nobody invests as much in development aid in these countries as the EU. The North African states have to understand what is at stake financially. It is in their interests to cooperate. They want more aid from Europe so they also have to help us.
Interior Minister, Thomas de Maizière, is calling for reception centres in North Africa. Do you agree with him?
We have not yet discussed the issue at EU level. In Libya especially, the situation is not stable. Only a narrow strip at the coast is under government control while chaos reigns in the rest of the country. Cooperation with Tunisia can also be improved. Each of these countries has its own specific problems.
Is Afghanistan safe enough to send refugees back there?
There are safe areas in Afghanistan. But you really have to know the different regions extremely well in order to be able to reliably assess how safe they are. Each case must be examined separately.
The Berlin attack showed that individual terrorists are misusing the migratory routes. How great is the security risk?
There are rare exceptions like the attack in Berlin, which was carried out by a Tunisian. Nearly all the people who come to Europe across the Mediterranean are fleeing from precisely these terrorists. The problem is that in matters of security Europe is still very fragmented. Police and security services need to work better together with other authorities. That applies within the EU but also even within Member States.
And there is still no European Secret Service that can track down terrorists.
On the one hand, each country wants to benefit from the neighbouring country’s information but on the other, no EU country likes to share its own intelligence. That is not acceptable. Here we have come a step further: There will be a common EU entry and departure system and a number of centres are cooperating on fighting terrorism in Europe. Internet services such as Twitter and Facebook are also cooperating more with European authorities. Still, the fight against IS terrorists will keep us busy for years.
In the meantime, does the EU know who each and every refugee is who comes to Europe?
Europe has made enormous progress here. Now fingerprints are taken from every refugee at an EU external border in Italy or Greece and they are also interviewed by experts regarding their origin, age and background.
And yet there is still uncertainty as to whether refugees provide correct personal identification data.
The system works. We can quickly identify conspicuous people. And we can recognise if a person has entered Europe before, and where in Europe that person has been. But any data system is only as good as the effort made to maintain it by each and every public servant concerned in any given European country. I expect every member of the police to think European in terms of security.